Discussion:
Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
(too old to reply)
Charlie
2024-05-28 06:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
<https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>

The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System, or WPS,
which offers an API to which any device or service, Apple-made or
otherwise, can submit one or more Basic Service Set Identifiers, together
with their signal strength.

A BSSID is a number - oftentimes unique - that serves as a WiFi access
point's MAC address. By cataloging these BSSIDs and their location, WPSes
offered by the likes of Apple and Google help other devices triangulate
their location without using power-hungry global positioning system
capabilities.

Two University of Maryland researchers report that problem with Apple's
WPS, which anyone or thing can query for free, is that it offers overly
verbose responses that can potentially be abused by remote attackers to
track any device with a BSSID, anywhere across the globe. While Google's
WPS returns a single BSSID in response to a query, Apple's returns a list
of up to 400.

The researchers' proof-of-concept attack used fabricated queries to trick
Apple's WPS into giving it extensive information about the BSSIDs it
stored.

"Applying this technique over the course of a year, we learned the precise
locations of over 2 billion BSSIDs around the world," said the report's
co-authors, Erik Rye, a University of Maryland Ph.D. student focused on
network security and privacy, and Dave Levin, a computer science professor
at the university.

The researchers said they didn't study WPSes offered by others, including
Google, although noted that Google's is less susceptible to this attack,
because it requires all users to authenticate to its WPS API, and charges
them for queries, although the fee is nominal for a small volume of
requests.

By contrast, "Apple's API opportunistically returns the geolocations of up
to several hundred more BSSIDs nearby the one requested," they said. "These
unrequested BSSID geolocations are presumably then cached by the client,
which no longer needs to request the locations of the nearby BSSIDs it may
soon encounter, e.g., as the user walks down a city street."

While that's the legitimate use case, attackers can turn such functionality
to malicious ends.

"We demonstrated that this attack could be applied to individual users,
such as travel router owners, as they move from location to location. We
also showed that WPSes could be used to find sensitive equipment, like
Starlink routers in Ukraine," the researchers said.

They shared their results in advance of publication with Apple and Google,
as well as two of the router manufacturers whose users are most at risk
from the attack: SpaceX's Starlink, and Hong Kong-based GL.iNet.

Via their attack, the researchers said they could track live movements of
devices connected to Starlink, locating military members and civilians in
Ukraine and Gaza. They could also track devices as they moved around the
world.

"The ability to track users via their access points over time using Apple's
WPS is a severe privacy vulnerability," said report co-author Erik Rye,
who's a network security researcher at the University of Maryland. "Anyone,
not just a privileged adversary like a nation-state, could execute the
attack," which could be used not just for location tracking by governments
but also for stalking or even advertising purposes.

One country underrepresented in researchers' data set was China. They
hypothesized that this black hole is likely due to Chinese laws prohibiting
the domestic collection or sharing BSSIDs. While they did count a few
thousand BSSIDs in China, they said this likely traced to "tourists or
foreigners" using devices that cataloged the BSSIDs around them.

What can be done to block this BSSID-cataloging and tracking attack? The
researchers points to four strategies: WPS service operators limiting
access to their APIs, governments passing legislation prohibiting
individuals' devices being used for geolocation purposes, users not taking
their travel modems with them at all, or best of all, having devices
randomize their BSSID on reboot or whenever they get moved.

Multiple vendors have begun making changes in response to the research.
While Apple did not immediately respond to a request for comment, the
company in March

added the ability for access point operators to opt out of its gathering of
crowdsourced location data, in line with what Google since 2016 already
offered for its WPS.

"The owner of a Wi-Fi access point can opt it out of Apple's Location
Services - which prevents its location from being sent to Apple to include
in Apple's crowd-sourced location database - by changing the access point's
SSID (name) to end with '_nomap,'" Apple said. "For example, 'Access_Point'
would be changed to 'Access_Point_nomap.'"

"We're also told that they have a couple of other remediations that are due
to be in place soon," Rye said.

Starlink responded by pushing updates to its routers to stop using static
BSSIDs and to start randomizing them instead. The researchers said that
while this update process, started in 2023, appears to still be underway,
"we hope that other router manufacturers will follow their example in the
near future, and that BSSID randomization will become the norm rather than
the exception."

While GL.iNet's product security team said they plan to randomize their
routers' MAC addresses, they aren't planning to do the same with their
products' BSSIDs, the researchers reported.
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-28 21:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
<https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>
Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?

Basically you can track anyone simply by asking Apple for their location.
No permission? No problem, says Apple. Here's their location & also the
location of the nearest 400 people to that person. How's that for privacy.

Researchers find Apple's Wi-Fi Positioning System represents a serious
privacy vulnerability.
<https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html>

"Apple's WPS server sends up to 400 other known Wi-Fi networks that may be
in the approximate vicinity of the device as part of its crowdsourcing
location database.

From this list, the requesting device searches for eight possible variants
and calculates its location based on this data. Apple's WPS system, the iOS
device, and the router on which the network is based operate with the
so-called BSSIDs (Basic Service Set Identification) and usually correspond
to the MAC address of the device, which is static in most cases.

The request via Apple's APIs is free, so Rye and Levin sent 30 requests per
second with 100 guessed BSSIDs.

The information on the current static location alone is life-threatening in
the wrong hands, as it indicates the location data of the Ukrainian
military units and of refugees as they move about in the Gaza Strip.

With Apple & Google, you can add "_nomap" to your Access Point SSID.

However, Microsoft requires you to give them all your MAC addresses first!
https://account.microsoft.com/privacy/location-services-opt-out
Alan Browne
2024-05-29 19:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Charlie
Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
<https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>
Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?
This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense. Run for the
hills! Lock up your daughters!

BSSID's do not report anything that is a privacy risk. SSID's could
contain private data IF the owner added it to the SSID.

Note that some mapping services (such as those used by Google and Apple
and others) do collect SSID locations (Lat/Long) which are approximate
(but can be narrowed down over time). And thus when Identified can be
used as proxy location data. Big deal.

So the huge risk is to "travel routers". Sure. Once upon a time a man
with a briefcase stayed at a hotel. Yawn with snooze sauce.

The article also points out some workarounds for people who feel they
might be at risk.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-29 22:17:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Charlie
Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
<https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>
Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?
This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense. Run for the
hills! Lock up your daughters!
Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?

Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.
Post by Alan Browne
BSSID's do not report anything that is a privacy risk. SSID's could
contain private data IF the owner added it to the SSID.
Let's use the Edward Snowden method to show you don't believe that.

Please give me your accurate BSSID of your home router.
With that, I can tell you exactly where you live.
Post by Alan Browne
Note that some mapping services (such as those used by Google and Apple
and others) do collect SSID locations (Lat/Long) which are approximate
(but can be narrowed down over time). And thus when Identified can be
used as proxy location data. Big deal.
Stop trying to change the subject to SSIDs. Stick with the BSSID.
If you give me your accurate BSSID, I can tell you exactly where you live.

In fact, that's what the researchers themselves found out.
Post by Alan Browne
So the huge risk is to "travel routers". Sure. Once upon a time a man
with a briefcase stayed at a hotel. Yawn with snooze sauce.
You seemed to have missed the point of travel routers. They follow you.

Give me the accurate BSSID of your travel router.
Not only can I tell you where you live, but I can then follow you around.

That you missed that key point is a bit disconcerting.
Maybe you need to read the article again?
Post by Alan Browne
The article also points out some workarounds for people who feel they
might be at risk.
Since you didn't seem to understand the implication of "travel routers",
you may have missed that they discussed how to use "_nomap" on router
SSID's to have the (unique) BSSID removed from Apple's & Google's databases
(but not from Microsoft's databases).

Since you did not understand those implications, you probably don't yet
know that there are many other databases which don't necessarily honor
Google's "_nomap", such as those from WiGle, NetStumbler, Mozilla, etc.

As I said, the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
expected Apple, of all companies, of throwing privacy under the bus.

What it indicates is Apple advertises privacy - but doesn't understand it.
Alan Browne
2024-05-29 23:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Charlie
Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
<https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>
Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?
This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense.  Run for the
hills!  Lock up your daughters!
Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?
I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.
Post by Oscar Mayer
Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.
This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy. Your "protection"
at that point is strong passwords against intrusion. That's all.
And if you travel with a portable access point, there are other ways to
"scramble" the BSSID.

But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 00:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Oscar Mayer
Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?
This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense.  Run for the
hills!  Lock up your daughters!
Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?
I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.
Post by Oscar Mayer
Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.
This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy.
This strange idea that B/SSIDs are private is laughable. It's as if
these trolls have been hiding under rocks for the past few decades,
completely unaware that SSIDs are perfectly visible to anyone nearby.
Post by Alan Browne
But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl
clutching.
Yes, because: troll.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 03:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy.
This strange idea that B/SSIDs are private is laughable. It's as if
these trolls have been hiding under rocks for the past few decades,
completely unaware that SSIDs are perfectly visible to anyone nearby.
Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl
clutching.
Yes, because: troll.
Are you really saying 9to5Mac is "trolling" Apple by reporting it?

Apple Location Services vulnerability
<https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/>

"This includes your home wifi router, for example. Devices don't gain any
access to your router, but they can detect it and consult a database to
find out exactly where it is located. The issue could also allow an
attacker to work out the location of anyone using a mobile wifi router,
such as those in RVs, and travel routers sometimes used by business
travellers."
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 14:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station
broadcasting its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy.
This strange idea that B/SSIDs are private is laughable. It's as if
these trolls have been hiding under rocks for the past few decades,
completely unaware that SSIDs are perfectly visible to anyone nearby.
Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?
Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are you
excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have any
idea how ridiculous you sound?
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 15:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?
Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are you
excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have any
idea how ridiculous you sound?
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 15:58:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?
Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have
any idea how ridiculous you sound?
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
Sure I do. You don't seem to know that your router's BSSID isn't private
information.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Jörg Lorenz
2024-05-30 16:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?
Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have
any idea how ridiculous you sound?
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
Sure I do. You don't seem to know that your router's BSSID isn't private
information.
+1
--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 17:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?
Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have
any idea how ridiculous you sound?
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
Sure I do. You don't seem to know that your router's BSSID isn't private
information.
It's obvious you have no idea what a BSSID is, versus what an SSID is.

Why do you think only Apple has this problem, which, I'm sure you'll deny,
but every single cite on the Internet about it directly blames Apple alone.

"In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused to create a privacy
threat on a global scale." [https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 18:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?
Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you
have any idea how ridiculous you sound?
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
Sure I do. You don't seem to know that your router's BSSID isn't
private information.
It's obvious you have no idea what a BSSID is, versus what an SSID is.
Projection. Both are broadcast by the router which makes them both
public information.
Post by Oscar Mayer
only Apple has this problem
Wrong, Arlen. Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
by SSID and BSSID.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 21:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
by SSID and BSSID.
Every excuse you make for Apple's flawed implementation shows you do not
understand that it's Apple's flawed implementation alone that is to blame.

https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
"Apple's Wi-Fi Positioning System represents a really serious privacy
vulnerability"

"researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial
vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"

"The researchers discovered an oddity in the way Apple's WPS works"
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 21:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
by SSID and BSSID.
Every excuse
There is no excuse. WiFi routers broadcast their SSIDs as well as their
BSSIDs to the world. That's how WiFi works, you ignorant troll.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Andrew
2024-05-31 17:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
by SSID and BSSID.
Every excuse
There is no excuse. WiFi routers broadcast their SSIDs as well as their
BSSIDs to the world. That's how WiFi works, you ignorant troll.
If I'm ignorant and you know so much about how broadcasts work, why does
nothing you have ever said show any indication of how they actually work?

Note 1: While almost every router has an option to hide the broadcast
packets, that hidden broadcast setting won't prevent a seasoned attacker
(such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is
written) from pulling the packets out of a netstumbler/wireshark wardriving
scan, but the mere act of purposefully hiding the SSID broadcast packet has
been proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two
notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
adults might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried
about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.

*Or is it that your only goal is to defend Apple's flaws, to the death?*
Alan Browne
2024-05-31 19:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
by SSID and BSSID.
Every excuse
There is no excuse. WiFi routers broadcast their SSIDs as well as their
BSSIDs to the world. That's how WiFi works, you ignorant troll.
If I'm ignorant and you know so much about how broadcasts work, why does
Your wording shows you're searching the web and employing the results badly.
Post by Andrew
nothing you have ever said show any indication of how they actually work?
Note 1: While almost every router has an option to hide the broadcast
packets, that hidden broadcast setting won't prevent a seasoned attacker
Seasoned attacker? A CHILD can get at the BSSID when the SSID is
hidden, you fool.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Jolly Roger
2024-05-31 20:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Andrew
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers by SSID
and BSSID.
Every excuse
There is no excuse. WiFi routers broadcast their SSIDs as well as
their BSSIDs to the world. That's how WiFi works, you ignorant
troll.
If I'm ignorant and you know so much about how broadcasts work, why does
Your wording shows you're searching the web and employing the results badly.
Post by Andrew
nothing you have ever said show any indication of how they actually work?
Note 1: While almost every router has an option to hide the broadcast
packets, that hidden broadcast setting won't prevent a seasoned attacker
Seasoned attacker? A CHILD can get at the BSSID when the SSID is
hidden, you fool.
He very clearly knows very little about how WiFi actually works.
Dunning-Kruger in full effect.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Andrew
2024-05-31 21:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
He very clearly knows very little about how WiFi actually works.
Heh heh heh...

And yet, it's obvious you knew *none* of what I just explained to you.

There's a reason I've concluded you Apple religious fundamentalists are
a. of low IQ
b. hence, completely uneducated
c. which explains why you're always so ignorant

You knew *none* of those first order and second order ameliorations.

*Your only goal is to defend Apple, to the death.*
Andrew
2024-05-31 21:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Your wording shows you're searching the web and employing the results badly.
Heh heh heh... not only did you know none of what I wrote, but I have
entire privacy tutorials on the net saying what I said above.

The only goal you have is to deny every fact you hate about Apple products.
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Andrew
nothing you have ever said show any indication of how they actually work?
Note 1: While almost every router has an option to hide the broadcast
packets, that hidden broadcast setting won't prevent a seasoned attacker
Seasoned attacker? A CHILD can get at the BSSID when the SSID is
hidden, you fool.
It's no longer shocking Apple religious zealots still don't understand the
difference between first-order vs second-order BSSID privacy ameliorations.

Your main goal here is to make excuses for Apple's privacy vulnerabilities.
Alan Browne
2024-05-30 18:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?
Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are you
excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have any
idea how ridiculous you sound?
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR knows
precisely what the difference is.

The latter is usually obfuscated from the user as not esp. useful to
users. Though it is in the clear and clearly visible with a deeper look
and/or with scanning tools available for pretty much every OS.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 21:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR knows
precisely what the difference is.
It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID
and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all.

It was Apple's suggested workaround that involved an SSID - nothing else.
The problem is all about the way Apple handles the BSSID.

It's obvious that neither of you understand the difference in the least.
Only Apple has this vulnerability.

https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
"researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial
vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"
Post by Alan Browne
The latter is usually obfuscated from the user as not esp. useful to
users. Though it is in the clear and clearly visible with a deeper look
and/or with scanning tools available for pretty much every OS.
Neither of you shows any understanding that the WAN-facing BSSID is unique
to the router and unchangeable in almost all routers, and that a router's
location is unique to your exact location, and that a travel router's
WAN-facing BSSID, in particular, follows you around everywhere you go.

Neither of you shows any indication you understand that the LAN-facing MAC
cloning has absolutely no effect on the WAN-facing BSSID of most routers.

As a result of your lack of understanding, you didn't even read any of teh
cites, every one of which clearly says the problem is unique to Apple's
implementation alone - as only Apple hands out the nearest 400 BSSIDs.

Only Apple has this vulnerability.
https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
"However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue
arises."
Alan Browne
2024-05-30 21:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR
knows precisely what the difference is.
It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID
and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all.
It's actually the root of it which you would know if you knew at all
what it going on. I'll explain this as to a child to give you a
fighting chance.

When an a device such as a phone detects a WiFi access point it gets all
sorts of interesting information.

1. The BSSID which is a binary code (usually expressed in hexadecimal).
2. The SSID which is a label assigned to it by whoever administers the
access point. "AirPortFreeWiFi" for example.

The device (phone) user usually is only interested in the latter - he
picks from whatever is available to access the WiFi - if it is password
access, then of course he'll need that too.

The actual working connection does not use the SSID - it uses the BSSID.
(You can refer to it is as the MAC or Wi-Fi address if that helps you
connect all these big people ideas - although they often/usually the
same they don't have to be the same...).

Most devices will display the BSSID if the user wants to delve into it.
On most phones this would be shown as the MAC or Wi-Fi address. Or of
course, once can use one of many tools to display same.

Thus - in JR's earlier reply - he was being quite clear about what he
was replying to and did so correctly.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 21:52:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR
knows precisely what the difference is.
It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID
and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all.
It's actually the root of it which you would know if you knew at all
what it going on. I'll explain this as to a child to give you a
fighting chance.
When an a device such as a phone detects a WiFi access point it gets all
sorts of interesting information.
1. The BSSID which is a binary code (usually expressed in hexadecimal).
2. The SSID which is a label assigned to it by whoever administers the
access point. "AirPortFreeWiFi" for example.
The device (phone) user usually is only interested in the latter - he
picks from whatever is available to access the WiFi - if it is password
access, then of course he'll need that too.
The actual working connection does not use the SSID - it uses the BSSID.
(You can refer to it is as the MAC or Wi-Fi address if that helps you
connect all these big people ideas - although they often/usually the
same they don't have to be the same...).
Most devices will display the BSSID if the user wants to delve into it.
On most phones this would be shown as the MAC or Wi-Fi address. Or of
course, once can use one of many tools to display same.
Thus - in JR's earlier reply - he was being quite clear about what he
was replying to and did so correctly.
This is all elementary. Arlen pretends it's top-secret information that
nobody but he knows to feed his superiority complex due to his
insecurities. He has to pretend he's better than everyone else because
deep down, he knows he's a loser troll with nothing constructive to do
with his time on Earth.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 22:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID
and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all.
It's actually the root of it which you would know if you knew at all
what it going on. I'll explain this as to a child to give you a
fighting chance.
When an a device such as a phone detects a WiFi access point it gets all
sorts of interesting information.
1. The BSSID which is a binary code (usually expressed in hexadecimal).
2. The SSID which is a label assigned to it by whoever administers the
access point. "AirPortFreeWiFi" for example.
The device (phone) user usually is only interested in the latter - he
picks from whatever is available to access the WiFi - if it is password
access, then of course he'll need that too.
The actual working connection does not use the SSID - it uses the BSSID.
(You can refer to it is as the MAC or Wi-Fi address if that helps you
connect all these big people ideas - although they often/usually the
same they don't have to be the same...).
Most devices will display the BSSID if the user wants to delve into it.
On most phones this would be shown as the MAC or Wi-Fi address. Or of
course, once can use one of many tools to display same.
Thus - in JR's earlier reply - he was being quite clear about what he
was replying to and did so correctly.
It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.

https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
"However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue
arises."
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 23:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID
and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all.
It's actually the root of it which you would know if you knew at all
what it going on. I'll explain this as to a child to give you a
fighting chance.
When an a device such as a phone detects a WiFi access point it gets all
sorts of interesting information.
1. The BSSID which is a binary code (usually expressed in hexadecimal).
2. The SSID which is a label assigned to it by whoever administers the
access point. "AirPortFreeWiFi" for example.
The device (phone) user usually is only interested in the latter - he
picks from whatever is available to access the WiFi - if it is password
access, then of course he'll need that too.
The actual working connection does not use the SSID - it uses the BSSID.
(You can refer to it is as the MAC or Wi-Fi address if that helps you
connect all these big people ideas - although they often/usually the
same they don't have to be the same...).
Most devices will display the BSSID if the user wants to delve into it.
On most phones this would be shown as the MAC or Wi-Fi address. Or of
course, once can use one of many tools to display same.
Thus - in JR's earlier reply - he was being quite clear about what he
was replying to and did so correctly.
It's clear you don't understand the issue
Projection, it is *you* who don't understand the ramifications - or how
WiFi access points work.
Post by Oscar Mayer
"However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue
arises."
What Arlen refrained from quoting is that this "crucial difference" is
simply that with Apple's database, searches yield more results of access
points that are near the queried B/SSID. What he also isn't
acknowledging is that when you search for a B/SSID on Wigle.net's map,
you also see all nearby access points right there on a handy visual map.

Nothing Arlen can say changes the FACT (little Arlen loves that word)
those IDs are still broadcast to the public by those WiFi access points.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Alan Browne
2024-05-30 23:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
It's clear
that you are gullible. A click bait drive victim.

you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
Post by Oscar Mayer
only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.
The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE BILLIONS.

THESE WAVES ARE PENETRATING YOUR HEAD RIGHT NOW.

DESPITE THE 6 LAYERS OF ALUMINUM PAPER OVER YOUR HEAD.

The specific case is "Apple do things differently than (say) Google or
someone else". Well .... frick -- who'd a thunk different people do
things differently. BRING BACK COMMUNISM AND DO IT FROM CENTRAL CONTROL!
Post by Oscar Mayer
https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
"However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue
arises."
Keep beating on that. What you're missing (big picture) is that these
people are using words like "crucial" and this is causing neurons to
fire brightly in your head. There is nothing important happening - it's
just happening differently. The contrast is being exploited because the
trigger words cause you to go bananas and that is good to get articles
seen and linked and copied when there is little of consequence actually
happening.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Andrew
2024-05-31 17:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE BILLIONS.
The fact is you're defending Apple's holes, to the death, no matter what.

Every desperate excuse you make for the flaws in Apple's implementation
show you not understand what only Apple does that's different here.

Worse, you were not aware the outward facing MAC address cannot be cloned
(in almost all routers and particularly in the tested travel routers).

And you were not aware that the SSID is meaningless for this exploit, other
than the workaround that Apple suggested (of appending _nomac to the SSID).

Furthermore, you're still not aware that a "hidden broadcast" has been a
feature of nearly every router since the dawn of Wi-Fi, where the mere act
of clicking that checkbox prevents the BSSID from being *uploaded* to the
Google and Apple and Mozilla and Wigle databases, by default. (See notes in
the sig, given the Apple religious zealots don't understand this issue).

While you're frantically desperate to fabricate excuses for Apple's
vulnerabilities, you don't ever show any understanding of them.

Notes in the sig given Apple religious zealots don't understand anything.
--
Note 1: The hidden broadcast won't hide the BSSID from a seasoned attacker
(such as a Google or Apple transit vehicle - depending on how its code is
written); but the mere act of hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been
proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about

Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two
notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
you might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried
about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.
Alan Browne
2024-05-31 19:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Alan Browne
The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE BILLIONS.
The fact is you're defending Apple's holes, to the death, no matter what.
I'm not defending what Apple do. What Apple do is their choice and it
is no more harmful than what others do. It's different. That's all.

But you do you: desperately misinform and spread BS
Post by Andrew
Every desperate excuse you make for the flaws in Apple's implementation
show you not understand what only Apple does that's different here.
Worse, you were not aware the outward facing MAC address cannot be cloned
(in almost all routers and particularly in the tested travel routers).
Completely irrelevant. But play all you want.
Post by Andrew
And you were not aware that the SSID is meaningless for this exploit, other
than the workaround that Apple suggested (of appending _nomac to the SSID).
You're clearly not following.
Post by Andrew
Furthermore, you're still not aware that a "hidden broadcast" has been a
feature of nearly every router since the dawn of Wi-Fi, where the mere act
of clicking that checkbox prevents the BSSID from being *uploaded* to the
Google and Apple and Mozilla and Wigle databases, by default. (See notes in
the sig, given the Apple religious zealots don't understand this issue).
Not only understand it, have reliable knowledge that hardly anyone uses it.

You're really grasping.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Andrew
2024-05-31 21:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Andrew
The fact is you're defending Apple's holes, to the death, no matter what.
I'm not defending what Apple do. What Apple do is their choice and it
is no more harmful than what others do. It's different. That's all.
And yet, no other company except Apple has this huge privacy vulnerability.

<https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>
The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System, aka WPS
Post by Alan Browne
But you do you: desperately misinform and spread BS
And yet, I'm quoting the cites and all you're doing is denying all facts.

<https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html>
Researchers have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way
only Apple's location services work - no other platforms have it.
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Andrew
Every desperate excuse you make for the flaws in Apple's implementation
show you not understand what only Apple does that's different here.
Worse, you were not aware the outward facing MAC address cannot be cloned
(in almost all routers and particularly in the tested travel routers).
Completely irrelevant.
It's obvious that neither you, nor Jolly Roger, has any understanding of
why this huge Apple-only vulnerability is caused by Apple & Apple alone.

<https://www.cs.umd.edu/~dml/papers/wifi-surveillance-sp24.pdf>
The threat applies even to users that do not own devices for
which Apple's WPS was designed. Individuals who own no Apple products,
for instance, can have their AP in Apple's WPS merely by having
Apple's flawed and highly insecure devices come within Wi-Fi range"
Post by Alan Browne
But play all you want.
You're the one defending Apple's privacy holes to the death, not me.

<https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/>
There is one crucial difference between the competent way in which
Apple and Google devices carry out this task and how Apple alone
chose to implement it and that's exactly where the privacy issue arises.
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Andrew
And you were not aware that the SSID is meaningless for this exploit, other
than the workaround that Apple suggested (of appending _nomac to the SSID).
You're clearly not following.
Heh heh heh... it's clear you've never even heard of a BSSID in your life,
and now you're claiming you know more than Apple does about this problem by
saying it's not caused by the way Apple handles the database queries.

<https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/>
Apple's unrestricted WPS API endpoint is why this flaw is so serious
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Andrew
Furthermore, you're still not aware that a "hidden broadcast" has been a
feature of nearly every router since the dawn of Wi-Fi, where the mere act
of clicking that checkbox prevents the BSSID from being *uploaded* to the
Google and Apple and Mozilla and Wigle databases, by default. (See notes in
the sig, given the Apple religious zealots don't understand this issue).
Not only understand it, have reliable knowledge that hardly anyone uses it.
It's no longer shocking that you Apple religious fundamentalists are making
excuses for what even Apple hasn't denied is a flaw caused only by Apple.

<https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/>
"Anyone can exploit Apple's flawed WiFi-based positioning system (WPS)*
Post by Alan Browne
You're really grasping.
And yet, I'm the one who is supplying cites for every single fact I speak.
<https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>
"In this work, we show that Apple's flawed WPS can too easily be abused"

All you're doing is defending all of Apple's privacy flaws, to the death.
Jolly Roger
2024-05-31 22:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Andrew
The fact is you're defending Apple's holes, to the death, no matter what.
I'm not defending what Apple do. What Apple do is their choice and it
is no more harmful than what others do. It's different. That's all.
And yet, no other company except Apple has this huge privacy vulnerability.
The "privacy vulnerability" of being able to look up a router in a
database and get the BSSID of it and all nearby routers - which isn't
exclusive to Apple's database at all. 🤡
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Andrew
2024-05-31 22:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Andrew
And yet, no other company except Apple has this huge privacy vulnerability.
The "privacy vulnerability" of being able to look up a router in a
database and get the BSSID of it and all nearby routers - which isn't
exclusive to Apple's database at all.
The fact you make that claim is proof you do not understand the flaw.

<https://www.bizcommunity.com/article/apple-may-have-turned-wi-fi-routers-into-a-privacy-threat-239637a>
"Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based
Positioning System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers
to track devices globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS
operates, raising serious privacy concerns."

There's must be reasons Apple religious extremists deny all facts
that these religious fundamentalists hate about Apple products.

One of those reasons you just proved, which is you can't understand
these privacy issues at the level that any normal adult should.

<https://cyberinsider.com/apples-wi-fi-based-positioning-system-is-a-privacy-nightmare/>
*Apple's Wi-Fi-Based Positioning System is a Privacy Nightmare*
Jolly Roger
2024-05-31 20:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Alan Browne
The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE
BILLIONS.
The fact is
You wouldn't know a fact if it slapped you in the face, little Arlen.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Alan
2024-05-31 20:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Andrew
Post by Alan Browne
The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE BILLIONS.
The fact is
You wouldn't know a fact if it slapped you in the face, little Arlen.
And we know this because they so very often have done.

:-)
Andrew
2024-05-31 21:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
You wouldn't know a fact if it slapped you in the face
And yet, I've provided almost a dozen cites of fact, Jolly Roger.

All you did was brazenly deny every fact about Apple that you hate.

Not only is that a lot of facts that you hate about Apple, but even Apple
does not disagree with the fact that their WPS implementation is flawed.

I've studied you strange Apple religious fundamentalists, to conclude
you are herd animals - with no adult capacity to make your own choices.

Hence, *you defend Apple, to the death* no matter what.

Even when Apple itself admits to the fact that these flaws are serious.
Jolly Roger
2024-05-31 22:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
You wouldn't know a fact if it slapped you in the face
And yet, blah blah blah blah
Get fucked, little Arlen. And have the shitty evening you deserve.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Andrew
2024-05-31 22:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
And have the shitty evening you deserve.
All that vitriol... simply because I cited a proven fact you don't like.

<https://cyberinsider.com/apples-wi-fi-based-positioning-system-is-a-privacy-nightmare/>
*Apple's Wi-Fi-Based Positioning System is a Privacy Nightmare*

"Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based Positioning
System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers to track devices
globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS operates, raising
serious privacy concerns."
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 21:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR
knows precisely what the difference is.
It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an
SSID and a BSSID
It's obvious *you* don't understand how WiFi works. BSSIDs and SSIDs are
broadcast by WiFi routers and have been since WiFi was created. There is
no "privacy violation" in looking at information that is broadcast to
the public.
Post by Oscar Mayer
the WAN-facing BSSID is unique to the router and unchangeable
Irrelevant. It is broadcast to the world. No privacy issue here.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Andrew
2024-05-31 17:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
the WAN-facing BSSID is unique to the router and unchangeable
Irrelevant. It is broadcast to the world. No privacy issue here.
And yet, it's not.

Which proves beyond question what you Apple zealots don't understand.

*All you wish to do is defend Apple's vulnerabilities to the death.*

See technical proof in the sig proving sheer ignorance of the zealots.
--
Note 1: The hidden broadcast won't hide the BSSID from a seasoned attacker
(such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is
written); but the mere act of hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been
proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two
notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
adults might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried
about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.
Jolly Roger
2024-05-31 20:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
the WAN-facing BSSID is unique to the router and unchangeable
Irrelevant. It is broadcast to the world. No privacy issue here.
And yet, it's not.
Yes it is. That's why it's called a "WAN-facing BSSID", numbskull.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Andrew
2024-05-31 21:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Andrew
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
the WAN-facing BSSID is unique to the router and unchangeable
Irrelevant. It is broadcast to the world. No privacy issue here.
And yet, it's not.
Yes it is. That's why it's called a "WAN-facing BSSID", numbskull.
It's no longer shocking that you have never heard of MAC cloning in your
life - and worse - that you actually think MAC cloning will work here.

There's a reason Apple themselves agreed this is a very serious flaw in
Apple's WPS implementation and why Starlink has already implemented a fix.
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 21:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?
Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have
any idea how ridiculous you sound?
You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?
The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR
knows precisely what the difference is.
Arlen acts like this is some sort of secret information, when the
reality is the definitions of BSSIDs and SSIDs is common knowledge.
Arlen clearly doesn't understand how WiFi works, yet he's claiming
everyone else is dumb.
Post by Alan Browne
The latter is usually obfuscated from the user as not esp. useful to
users. Though it is in the clear and clearly visible with a deeper
look and/or with scanning tools available for pretty much every OS.
Of course it is. It's broadcast by routers. It's public information.
There is no "privacy violation" inherent in looking at publicly
broadcast information.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Andrew
2024-05-31 17:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Of course it is. It's broadcast by routers. It's public information.
There is no "privacy violation" inherent in looking at publicly
broadcast information.
That sentence proves beyond any doubt that these ignorant uneducated Apple
religious zealots have absolutely no understanding of how broadcasts work.

Their only desperate goal is to defend Apple's flaws to the death.

See technical notes in the sig since adults understand what they do not.
--
Note 1: The hidden broadcast won't hide the BSSID from a seasoned attacker
(such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is
written); but the mere act of hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been
proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two
notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
you might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried
about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.
Alan Browne
2024-05-31 19:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Jolly Roger
Of course it is. It's broadcast by routers. It's public information.
There is no "privacy violation" inherent in looking at publicly
broadcast information.
That sentence proves beyond any doubt that these ignorant uneducated Apple
religious zealots have absolutely no understanding of how broadcasts work.
Their only desperate goal is to defend Apple's flaws to the death.
See technical notes in the sig since adults understand what they do not.
I did leave out that the SSID can be muted. But that is not at all
relevant to the discussion.

It is only you throwing more distraction at things to try (desperately)
to score points.

There is a rock out there missing what should be under it. Go back.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Andrew
2024-05-31 22:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
I did leave out that the SSID can be muted. But that is not at all
relevant to the discussion.
It wasn't surprising that you Apple religious extremists had no adult
understanding of what the difference is between an SSID & a BSSID, nor that
you Apple religious zealots had no inkling that the MAC-address cloning
feature isn't going to solve anything - simply because most routers don't
allow you to change the MAC address of the Wi-Fi access point that Apple
WPS saves.

<https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/23/apple_wifi_positioning_system/>
"The threat applies even to users that do not own devices for which the
WPSes are designed - individuals who own no Apple products, for instance,
can have their AP in Apple's WPS merely by having Apple devices come
within Wi-Fi transmission range."
Post by Alan Browne
It is only you throwing more distraction at things to try (desperately)
to score points.
The only 'point' I'm scoring, are the cites to the facts of the matter.
<https://www.cs.umd.edu/~dml/papers/wifi-surveillance-sp24.pdf>
In this work, we show that Apples WPS implementation can easily
be abused to create a serious privacy threat on a global scale.

What's no longer shocking is you Apple religious fanatics deny all facts
about Apple that you hate - which - unfortunately - is a lot of facts.

<https://www.bizcommunity.com/article/apple-may-have-turned-wi-fi-routers-into-a-privacy-threat-239637a>
"Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based
Positioning System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers
to track devices globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS
operates, raising serious privacy concerns."

The adult question to ask of you is why you brazenly deny these facts?
Andrew
2024-05-31 17:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Of course it is. It's broadcast by routers. It's public information.
There is no "privacy violation" inherent in looking at publicly
broadcast information.
That sentence proves beyond any doubt that these ignorant uneducated Apple
religious zealots have absolutely no understanding of how broadcasts work.

Their only desperate goal is to defend Apple's flaws to the death.

See technical notes in the sig since adults understand what they do not.
--
Note 1: The hidden broadcast won't hide the BSSID from a seasoned attacker
(such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is
written); but the mere act of hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been
proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two
notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
adults might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried
about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 03:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?
I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.
You can say privacy is a non issue but doesn't Apple advertise it?
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.
This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy. Your "protection"
at that point is strong passwords against intrusion. That's all.
You're apparently not aware that a router's outward-facing BSSID is unique.
Post by Alan Browne
And if you travel with a portable access point, there are other ways to
"scramble" the BSSID.
Not with a router there isn't. Since you don't know anything about routers,
allow me to explain that "MAC cloning" never clones outward facing BSSIDs.
Post by Alan Browne
But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.
You're denying that a problem exists, but you don't understand the problem.

Apple Location Services vulnerability
<https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/>

"This includes your home wifi router, for example. Devices don't gain any
access to your router, but they can detect it and consult a database to
find out exactly where it is located. The issue could also allow an
attacker to work out the location of anyone using a mobile wifi router,
such as those in RVs, and travel routers sometimes used by business
travellers."
Alan Browne
2024-05-30 11:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?
I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.
You can say privacy is a non issue but doesn't Apple advertise it?
Context: BSSID
Privacy: BSSID's are openly broadcast for a reason.

Not an Apple issue.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 15:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
You can say privacy is a non issue but doesn't Apple advertise it?
Context: BSSID
Privacy: BSSID's are openly broadcast for a reason.
In every paper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.

"In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused to create a privacy
threat on a global scale." [https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]
Post by Alan Browne
Not an Apple issue.
Then why is everyone who understands it reporting that it's very much an
Apple issue.

"Academic researchers have criticized Apple for enabling stalkers and
warlords. An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking of
almost any vendor's Wi-Fi access point location."
�[https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]

"Apple will provide your WiFi location to anyone sending a query, and
researchers demonstrated that "an unprivileged, weak attacker" - in other
words, anyone - can exploit Apple's WiFi-based positioning system (WPS) to
perform global mass surveillance."
�[https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]
Alan Browne
2024-05-30 18:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
You can say privacy is a non issue but doesn't Apple advertise it?
Context: BSSID
Privacy: BSSID's are openly broadcast for a reason.
In every paper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.
Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets paid,
the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning "privacy"
"issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.

Gullible schmucks eat it up.
Post by Oscar Mayer
"In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused
ANY WiFi device can detect BSSIDs.

Couple that to the position
- from GPS or
- trilaterated from cell towers
- hand entered by those gelatinous forms called low wager workers

And you have a proxy position and time of detection.

OH THE HUMANITY!
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 21:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
aper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.
Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets paid,
the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning "privacy"
"issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.
Gullible schmucks eat it up.
It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.

https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
"researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial
vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Oscar Mayer
"In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused
ANY WiFi device can detect BSSIDs.
Couple that to the position
- from GPS or
- trilaterated from cell towers
- hand entered by those gelatinous forms called low wager workers
And you have a proxy position and time of detection.
OH THE HUMANITY!
It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.

https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
"However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue
arises."
Alan Browne
2024-05-30 21:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Oscar Mayer
aper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.
Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets paid,
the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning "privacy"
"issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.
Gullible schmucks eat it up.
It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.
https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
"researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial
vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"
Your problem is your gullibility. "Apple" is your trigger word.

Go work it out with a psychologist.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 21:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Oscar Mayer
aper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.
Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets paid,
the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning "privacy"
"issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.
Gullible schmucks eat it up.
It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.
https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
"researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial
vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"
Your problem is your gullibility. "Apple" is your trigger word.
Go work it out with a psychologist.
If only...
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 21:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Oscar Mayer
aper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.
Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets
paid, the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning
"privacy" "issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.
Gullible schmucks eat it up.
It's clear you don't understand the issue
You're projecting. It is you who does not understand how WiFi works.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Andrew
2024-05-31 17:53:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Alan Browne
Gullible schmucks eat it up.
It's clear you don't understand the issue
You're projecting. It is you who does not understand how WiFi works.
And yet, the fact is, I do understand, and more importantly, you do not.
*Your only goal is to defend all of Apple's flaws, to the death.*

Note 1: While almost every router has an option to hide the broadcast
packets, that hidden broadcast setting won't prevent a seasoned attacker
(such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is
written) from pulling the packets out of a netstumbler/wireshark wardriving
scan, but the mere act of purposefully hiding the SSID broadcast packet has
been proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two
notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
adults might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried
about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.
Your Name
2024-05-30 07:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Charlie
Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
<https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>
Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?
This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense.  Run for the
hills!  Lock up your daughters!
Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?
I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.
Post by Oscar Mayer
Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.
This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy. Your "protection"
at that point is strong passwords against intrusion. That's all.
And if you travel with a portable access point, there are other ways to
"scramble" the BSSID.
But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.
Unfortunately in this newsgroup there are a lot of know-nothing trolls
and a lot of conspiracy nutters, with some 'people' (for want of a
better term) being in both groupings. :-(
david
2024-05-30 08:41:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Post by Alan Browne
But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.
Unfortunately in this newsgroup there are a lot of know-nothing trolls
and a lot of conspiracy nutters, with some 'people' (for want of a
better term) being in both groupings.
Seems pretty real in government, Apple news & cybersecurity news reports.

https://cybersecuritynews.com/apples-wi-fi-positioning-system/
"Researchers from the University of Maryland published their findings,
which reveal that an unprivileged attacker can exploit Apple's
crowdsourced location tracking system to amass a worldwide database
of Wi-Fi access point locations and track devices' movements."

The researchers suggested in their paper that the government again be used
to force Apple to implement privacy so this can't be done in the future.

"They also recommend that WPS operators restrict access to their APIs
and that governments consider regulating the use of WPS data.
Alan Browne
2024-05-30 11:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Your Name
Post by Alan Browne
But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.
Unfortunately in this newsgroup there are a lot of know-nothing trolls
and a lot of conspiracy nutters, with some 'people' (for want of a
better term) being in both groupings.
Seems pretty real in government, Apple
The silly troll is trying to slant this as an Apple issue.

It's not. At all. It's a public broadcast signal - anyone can record
them and where and when they were recorded.

Don't need an Apple device.

Or for that matter, any device.

Just use a database that contains a worldwide listing of known and
uploaded BSSID's such as:

https://wigle.net/
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 14:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by david
Post by Your Name
Post by Alan Browne
But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.
Unfortunately in this newsgroup there are a lot of know-nothing
trolls and a lot of conspiracy nutters, with some 'people' (for want
of a better term) being in both groupings.
Seems pretty real in government, Apple
The silly troll is trying to slant this as an Apple issue.
It's not. At all. It's a public broadcast signal - anyone can record
them and where and when they were recorded.
Don't need an Apple device.
Or for that matter, any device.
Just use a database that contains a worldwide listing of known and
https://wigle.net/
"EERMEGHERD! ThIs Is A pRiVaCy IsSuE! HoW dArE tHeY rEaD sSiDs BeInG
bRoAdCaSt By MiLlIoNs Of RoUtErS?!?1!!" - morons everywhere

Next, these smooth brains will try to explain how Apple doing it "Is
DiFfErEnT!"... Watch.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Charlie
2024-05-30 15:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
"EERMEGHERD! ThIs Is A pRiVaCy IsSuE! HoW dArE tHeY rEaD sSiDs BeInG
bRoAdCaSt By MiLlIoNs Of RoUtErS?!?1!!" - morons everywhere
Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole, can
you find any reference on the Internet that says the problem is NOT Apple?
Post by Jolly Roger
Next, these smooth brains will try to explain how Apple doing it "Is
DiFfErEnT!"... Watch.
Even the Apple shills say the privacy hole is an Apple vulnerability
due to the way that Apple hands out over 400 responses to each request.

https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
"Security researchers report that a key element of Apple Location Services
contains what they call a really serious privacy vulnerability"

https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
"Researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial
vulnerability in the way Apple�s location services work"
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 15:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Post by Jolly Roger
"EERMEGHERD! ThIs Is A pRiVaCy IsSuE! HoW dArE tHeY rEaD sSiDs BeInG
bRoAdCaSt By MiLlIoNs Of RoUtErS?!?1!!" - morons everywhere
Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole
A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 21:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole
A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".
Only Apple has this vulnerability.

https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
"However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue
arises."
Alan Browne
2024-05-30 21:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole
A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".
Only Apple has this vulnerability.
https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
"However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue
arises."
Apple trigger word got ya huh?
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-31 18:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Apple trigger word got ya huh?
You're the one making excuse after excuse for Apple's flawed coding.

Every government, security researcher and even Apple centric publication
reported the problem is the specific vulnerable way that only Apple alone
has chosen to implement their location services without ever testing it.

Not Google. Not Wigle. Not Mozilla. Only Apple.
[https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html]
"Researchers have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way
only Apple's location services work"

[https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330]
"The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System, or WPS"

[https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
"We need to understand Apple devices figure out locations differently"

[https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]
"An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking."

[https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]
"Anyone can exploit Apple's flawed WiFi-based positioning system (WPS)*

[https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]
"In this work, we show that Apple's flawed WPS can too easily be abused"
Alan Browne
2024-05-31 19:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Alan Browne
Apple trigger word got ya huh?
You're the one making excuse after excuse for Apple's flawed coding.
It's not flawed. It's doing as designed. Do keep up.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Andrew
2024-05-31 22:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Oscar Mayer
You're the one making excuse after excuse for Apple's flawed coding.
It's not flawed. It's doing as designed. Do keep up.
The question here is why do you Apple religious extremists deny every fact
about Apple products that you hate - yet which you don't even understand?

"Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based Positioning
System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers to track devices
globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS operates, raising
serious privacy concerns."

<https://cyberinsider.com/apples-wi-fi-based-positioning-system-is-a-privacy-nightmare/>
*Apple's Wi-Fi-Based Positioning System is a Privacy Nightmare*

Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 21:30:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole
A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".
Only Apple
Nope, sorry.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-31 18:52:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole
A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".
Only Apple
Nope, sorry.
Nobody but you denies what even Apple doesn't deny.

Why do you do that?

[https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
"There is one crucial difference between the way in which
Apple and Google devices carry out this task
and that's exactly where the privacy issue arises."

[https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html]
"Researchers have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way
only Apple's location services work"

[https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330]
"The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System, or WPS"

[https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
"We need to understand Apple devices figure out locations differently"

[https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]
"An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking."
[https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]
"Anyone can exploit Apple's flawed WiFi-based positioning system (WPS)*

[https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]
"In this work, we show that Apple's flawed WPS can too easily be abused"

Why do you deny what nobody but you denies (not even Apple denies it)?
Jolly Roger
2024-05-31 20:17:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole
A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".
Only Apple
Nope, sorry.
Nobody but you
Nobody but you trolls the Apple newsgroups all day every day like their
miserable lives depend on it. You are a sad, little loser, Arlen.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Charlie
2024-05-30 15:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Just use a database that contains a worldwide listing of known and
https://wigle.net/
You didn't read the paper.
https://www.cs.umd.edu/~dml/papers/wifi-surveillance-sp24.pdf

They discussed Wigle & Google. And Starlink too. The problem is Apple.

https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/23/apple_wifi_positioning_system/
"The threat applies even to users that do not own devices for which the
WPSes are designed - individuals who own no Apple products, for instance,
can have their AP in Apple's WPS merely by having Apple devices come within
Wi-Fi transmission range."
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 15:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Post by Alan Browne
Just use a database that contains a worldwide listing of known and
https://wigle.net/
You didn't read the paper.
https://www.cs.umd.edu/~dml/papers/wifi-surveillance-sp24.pdf
They discussed Wigle & Google. And Starlink too. The problem is Apple.
The supposed "privacy vulnerability stated by the authors of the paper
is that a database of WiFi B/SSIDs "enables a remote adversary to query
the location of arbitrary BSSIDs".

Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well. Again, routers broadcast their
B/SSIDs to the world - everyone can see them, which is why there are
numerous databases of them. There's nothing special about Apple in that
regard. It's just another database of WiFi SSIDs.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-30 18:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
The problem is Apple.
Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.
No you can't.

It's obvious you have no idea what the problem is, especially since every
cite on the Internet directly blames Apple and Apple alone for this flaw.

"In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused to create a privacy
threat on a global scale." [https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]
Post by Jolly Roger
Again, routers broadcast their
B/SSIDs to the world - everyone can see them, which is why there are
numerous databases of them.
What is obvious you don't understand, besides what a BSSID is, is that
every cite on the Internet blames Apple alone - and that's because how
Apple implemented the lookup (for example, by allowing an infinite number
of lookups without any checks whatsoever and then, to make it worse, by
reporting over 400 nearby BSSID's when you look up just one).

Apple Location Services vulnerability
[https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
"We first need to understand how Apple devices figure out their locations."
Post by Jolly Roger
There's nothing special about Apple in that
regard. It's just another database of WiFi SSIDs.
Why do you think only Apple has this problem, which, I'm sure you'll deny,
but every single cite on the Internet about it directly blames Apple alone.
[https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]
"Academic researchers have criticized Apple for enabling stalkers and
warlords. An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking of
almost any vendor's Wi-Fi access point location."

Every cite on the net blames Apple and Apple alone for this privacy flaw.
[https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]
"Apple will provide your WiFi location to anyone sending a query, and
researchers demonstrated that "an unprivileged, weak attacker" - in other
words, anyone - can exploit Apple's WiFi-based positioning system (WPS) to
perform global mass surveillance."
Jolly Roger
2024-05-30 21:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
The problem is Apple.
Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.
No you can't.
Yes, you can.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Oscar Mayer
2024-05-31 18:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
The problem is Apple.
Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.
No you can't.
Yes, you can.
Every government, security researcher and even Apple centric publication
reported the problem is the specific way that only Apple has implemented
the vulnerability. Not Google. Not Wigle. Not Mozilla. Only Apple.

[https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html]
"Researchers have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way
only Apple's location services work"

[https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330]
"The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System, or WPS"

[https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
"We need to understand Apple devices figure out locations differently"

[https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]
"An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking."

[https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]
"Anyone can exploit Apple's flawed WiFi-based positioning system (WPS)*

[https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]
"In this work, we show that Apple's flawed WPS can too easily be abused"
Alan Browne
2024-05-31 19:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
The problem is Apple.
Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.
No you can't.
Yes, you can.
Every government, security researcher and even Apple centric publication
reported the problem is the specific way that only Apple has implemented
the vulnerability.
Your new trigger word is "vulnerability". It is not the big boogie man
you desperately are painting it to be.

By your reaction if you heard of a shoplifter at a local store you'd be
screaming for protection against murderers.
--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's
Jolly Roger
2024-05-31 20:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Oscar Mayer
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Charlie
The problem is Apple.
Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.
No you can't.
Yes, you can.
Every government blah blah blah
Nothing you can say will ever change the FACT (you love misusing that
word) that anyone can pull up wigle.net, search for any WiFi router, and
see the BSSID of it and every router around it on a neat little map.
According to you this is a YUGE "vulnerability" - it's not. It's just
public information made accessible by an API and service, which is
exactly what Apple's service is. And the fact that you don't know this
says all we need to know about you. Cry harder, little Arlen. Your troll
is going nowhere.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Andrew
2024-05-31 22:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
It's just
public information made accessible by an API and service, which is
exactly what Apple's service is. And the fact that you don't know this
says all we need to know about you.
And yet, everything you just said, is dead wrong, and easily proven so.

"Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based Positioning
System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers to track devices
globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS operates, raising
serious privacy concerns."

<https://cyberinsider.com/apples-wi-fi-based-positioning-system-is-a-privacy-nightmare/>
*Apple's Wi-Fi-Based Positioning System is a Privacy Nightmare*

The question here is why do you Apple religious extremists deny every fact
about Apple products that you hate - yet which you don't even understand?
Loading...