Was Google Location Accuracy (now is How to Spoof Wi-Fi Location)

[Andrews]

How do you spoof Wi-Fi location on Android?

I probably know this stuff better'n anyone here, but maybe (hopefully)
someone who reads this question knows it better than I do as I do NOT know
how to spoof Wi-Fi location when Google Location Accuracy is turned on.

Whenever I turn on Google Location Accuracy (e.g., when an app requires it
to run), I immediately first spoof my GPS location (if I'm not routing).

That confuses the hell out of the app because it thinks you're in one GPS
location while the nearby Wi-Fi unique BSSIDs tell them you're elsewhere.

That works fine when I'm at home because I live in the boonies and my
unique BSSID's are NOT in the Google database - but when I'm traveling,
then the unique BSSID's of all the Access Points around me tell the truth.

Given that situation that it's trivial to spoof GPS when Precise Location
Accuracy is turned on, does anyone know how to spoof Wi-Fi location data?

[Andy Burns]

Post by Andrews
I do NOT know
how to spoof Wi-Fi location when Google Location Accuracy is turned on.

Is there a global Location Accuracy toggle hidden somewhere? I only see
per-app toggles.

[Andrews]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andrews
I do NOT know
how to spoof Wi-Fi location when Google Location Accuracy is turned on.

Is there a global Location Accuracy toggle hidden somewhere?
I only see per-app toggles.

Hi Andy,

If it wasn't you, I'd answer that question by saying I have discussed on
this newsgroup how to create a single-tap shortcut to the "global" 'Google
Location Accuracy" toggle - but I must assume you know about that toggle.
<Loading Image...>

So instead, I ask you if you can rephrase that question as my original
answer would be that, at least on my Android 13 Samsung, it's obvious.

Settings > Locations > Location services > Google Location Accuracy
<Loading Image...>

Since I'm always trying to be helpful, did I misunderstand your question?
And, do you have any idea how to spoof nearby Wi-Fi access point data?

[VanguardLH]

Post by Andrews
How do you spoof Wi-Fi location on Android?
I probably know this stuff better'n anyone here, but maybe (hopefully)
someone who reads this question knows it better than I do as I do NOT know
how to spoof Wi-Fi location when Google Location Accuracy is turned on.
Whenever I turn on Google Location Accuracy (e.g., when an app requires it
to run), I immediately first spoof my GPS location (if I'm not routing).
That confuses the hell out of the app because it thinks you're in one GPS
location while the nearby Wi-Fi unique BSSIDs tell them you're elsewhere.
That works fine when I'm at home because I live in the boonies and my
unique BSSID's are NOT in the Google database - but when I'm traveling,
then the unique BSSID's of all the Access Points around me tell the truth.
Given that situation that it's trivial to spoof GPS when Precise Location
Accuracy is turned on, does anyone know how to spoof Wi-Fi location data?

I'm confused. If you don't want to include more than GPS for
geolocation, why enable high accuracy mode which includes wi-fi hotspots
and cell towers?

High accuracy: GPS + networks
Battery saving: networks only
Device sensors only: GPS only <-- This isn't what you want, so you can
spoof it?

Those are my settings. In your reply to Andy, seems you don't get to
choose other than On and Off for geo accuracy. Turning off seems to be
the same as "device sensors only" for me which only using GPS. However,
one the last screenshot but one, looks like you have wi-fi scanning off.
With wi-fi scanning off, does it get forced on if you enable high
accuracy mode?

Are you trying to using GPS + cell towers while omitting wi-fi hotspots?
Not sure Android has that option, but I haven't use lots of brands of
smartphones to be sure.

[Andrews]

Post by VanguardLH

Post by Andrews
Given that situation that it's trivial to spoof GPS when Precise Location
Accuracy is turned on, does anyone know how to spoof Wi-Fi location data?

I'm confused.

Hi Vanguard,

Thanks for trying to help out as this is a VERY DIFFICULT privacy problem
to resolve - that will require help from people like you and Andy Burns.

The problem is also asked by me here in the XDA Developer's web site today.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-is-it-possible-to-spoof-the-nearby-wi-fi-access-point-location-data-when-google-location-privacy-is-turned-on-we-can-already-spoof-gps.4699702/>

Post by VanguardLH
If you don't want to include more than GPS for geolocation, why enable
high accuracy mode which includes wi-fi hotspots and cell towers?

Exactly! We all agree with you. We do NOT want it. We hate it!

But Google wants it - which is the reason Andy Burns opened this thread.
Andy is warning us that Google sets it by default on Android 15!

Post by VanguardLH
High accuracy: GPS + networks
Battery saving: networks only
Device sensors only: GPS only <-- This isn't what you want, so you can
spoof it?

Remember, it's not us who is enabling this setting; it's Google doing it!
"Google Location Accuracy" > "Improve Location Accuracy"

We don't want it. Even more to the point, we do not need it.

It's a trick by Google to get our data; it helps Google - not us!

I've discussed it in this thread from the summer when Google turned it on.
[Privacy] Do you know a way to permanently disable Google Location Accuracy
'precise location' & 'Wi-Fi scanning' while keeping only the GPS radio on?
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>

Post by VanguardLH
Those are my settings.

What I want is for me and me only to turn on "Google Location Accuracy
Improve Location Accuracy"; only me. Not Google. Nobody but me.

And I'll NEVER turn it on!
That's teh whole point.

We don't want it on.
Ever.

It's *never* needed (in my outdoor use model, anyway).
[I could see it being useful in rare indoor-only use models though.]

Post by VanguardLH
In your reply to Andy, seems you don't get to choose other than
On and Off for geo accuracy.

That's not the problem. Because I know how to turn it off.
(Although Andy implied he can't turn it off so we have to wait for him to
respond as in Android 13 I can turn it off when apps turn it on.)

The problem to understand is diabolically sinister.
1. Google LOVES when idiots turn on "Improve Location Accuracy"
2. But apparently there aren't enough idiots who do that
3. So now Google makes it the default in Android 15

Worse... since about the summer, Google Maps has *insisted* on turning it
on, and so do almost *all* apps which are compiling with the GSF spyware.

A. For example, if you open a cellular signal strength debugger
B. Which has been compiled with the ubiquitious GSF spyware runkit
C. It *forces* you to turn on "Improve Location Accuracy"!
D. Even though it's not needed at all for the cellular debugging!

The app doesn't need "Improve Location Accuracy".
Google needs it!

That's why we want to turn it off.

Post by VanguardLH
Turning off seems to be
the same as "device sensors only" for me which only using GPS. However,
one the last screenshot but one, looks like you have wi-fi scanning off.

You *never* want "Wi-Fi Scanning" to be turned on.
The problem is the GSF spyware automatically turns it on!
So you're constantly turning it off.

Again, YOU never will need it.
Google wants it!

That's why we want to turn it off!

Post by VanguardLH
With wi-fi scanning off, does it get forced on if you enable high
accuracy mode?

The problem is diabolical, where each app does different things but the
apps that have GSF spyware incorporated into them will often automatically
turn on all the scanning that YOU don't need but that Google wants.

Post by VanguardLH
Are you trying to using GPS + cell towers while omitting wi-fi hotspots?
Not sure Android has that option, but I haven't use lots of brands of
smartphones to be sure.

I do not want to use cell towers (too inaccurate compared to GPS).
I do not want to use Wi-Fi hotspots (because of spyware upload reasons)
I only want to use GPS (which is one way!).

GPS itself doesn't spy on you. It's a one-way signal.
From the satellite, to you.

GPS works even when you're not on the Internet.

But that's not the problem posed in this thread because it's trivial to
spoof the GPS location. I wrote all about it in this XDA thread long ago.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-whats-the-most-functional-mock-location-gps-spoofing-app-set-in-your-developer-options-for-mock-location-app.4475435/>

The problem is spoofing the Wi-FI AP location.

Only someone like Andy who knows how Android works will be able to
instantly understand why I ask this question though as most people haven't
thought past the letter A in the alphabet where this is around S or T in
terms of the level of knowledge and understanding that is required.

I am aware that the GPS spoofers also do "something" with respect to Wi-Fi
spoofing; but I asked XDA Developers about that a year ago, with no joy.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-what-does-it-mean-to-spoof-wi-fi-provider-in-your-default-fake-gps-mock-location-app-such-as-lexa-gps-spoofing.4629361/>

Long ago I asked this newsgroup what it means for Lexa to "Spoof Wi-Fi
Provider", but nobody knew what it means - and I don't know either.
<Loading Image...>

In summary, Google is automatically turning on "Improve Location Accuracy"
because Google wants the nearby Wi-Fi access point unique location data.

We do NOT need "Improve Location Accuracy" nor do we want it.
So we turn it off.

But if we can't turn it off, what we want to do is spoof it.

This thread seeks people who know Android better than I do who can explain
to me (and to all of us) how to spoof all that nearby Wi-Fi location data?

[VanguardLH]

Unless Google is changing the high accuracy setting to enabled (along
with enabling wifi geolocation) when they update the OS version, I
thought any apps that wanted to change geolocation for themselves would
instigate a popup asking the user for permission.

For me under an old Android 8.0.0, I go into Android settins -> General
-> Apps & Notifications -> App permissions, where I find 32 of 41 apps
want, and were granted, Your Location permission. In my old OS, I can
only turn on or off the permission per app. I cannot configure which
ones get which level of geolocation data (GPS only, networks only, or
GPS & networks). However, I would surprised if Location Mode changed
from Device sensors only (GPS only) to the other settings, or visa
versa. But, as I stated, I'm on an old Android version, and there will
never be a newer version for me. My old phone went unsupported back in
2019, and LG, the maker, left the smartphone market in 2021.

I haven't heard of apps that change the geolocation mode, just those
that want permission to use whatever is enabled. They might prod for
high accuracy, and may not function properly without it, like a car
locator app, but don't remember any that force a change in the mode.
I've not been hit with malware that might try to do that. Yet, I can
see how an OS upgrade could screw with settings. I have read where
users of Windows and Android sometime claim a setting got changed away
from what they configured, but if there was some evil plot to make that
change then everyone would complain.

[Andrews]

Post by VanguardLH
Unless Google is changing the high accuracy setting to enabled (along
with enabling wifi geolocation) when they update the OS version,

Hi Vanguard,

I really appreciate that you're trying to help and for that you have to
understand, but you're at the letter A or B in the alphabet where the
question is at the level of the letter S or T in the alphabet in terms of
knowledge required to answer the question.

I could teach you what you need to know, but that's taking away from
solving the question. I could write an entire book on what you don't know,
in fact, so while I'll patiently answer your questions, you need to realize
just doing so detracts from finding out the answer to the question.

Fair enough?

The problem with teaching you beginner basics is your questions are
completely unrelated to the problem set so each of your questions actually
subtracts (not add) from the process of finding out how to spoof the Wi-Fi
access point database.

Post by VanguardLH
I
thought any apps that wanted to change geolocation for themselves would
instigate a popup asking the user for permission.

What you need to know is it's not the app that is changing the permissions
but the google spyware that the apps include, which is called GSF (Google
Services Framework). It would take an entire book to explain that to you,
so suffice to just say that any app that incorporates GSF (which is many
apps!) will subliminally turn on stuff that you don't want turned on.

Whether or not it "asks" you is in the eye of the beholder becuase they
have a zillion ways of popping up stuff and NOT popping up stuff.

Suffice to say if you did NOT want an app to turn on precise location
accuracy, but you wanted ot use the app, the app has ways to turn it on
anyway without you knowing it. Sure it pops up a question, but there are a
zillion ways it poses that question.

You have to realize how far behind you are in this quest to find the answer
that I'd have to write an entire book to get you to the level Andy is at.

For your purposes, just assume the app turns on the precise location
accuracy without you knowing about it. Personally, a million times I've
looked and lo and behold, "something" turned in on for me - and I KNOW all
about it. It's that pernicious.

Teaching you all of this doesn't help to answer the questions in this
thread, which is how to spoof the Wi-Fi access point data.

Post by VanguardLH
For me under an old Android 8.0.0, I go into Android settins -> General
-> Apps & Notifications -> App permissions, where I find 32 of 41 apps
want, and were granted, Your Location permission.

Please stop thinking that Google is being polite about this.
They're not. They do it secretly. Without you knowing.
It doesn't matter what you see at any given moment because if you run an
app with GSF in it, it will CHANGE what you see.

For your purpose, assume it's being done secretly as that's the easiest way
I can explain it to you without writing an entire book explaining it.

None of your beginner basics permissions questions help answer the
questions in this thread, which is how to spoof the Wi-Fi access point
data.

Post by VanguardLH
In my old OS, I can
only turn on or off the permission per app. I cannot configure which
ones get which level of geolocation data (GPS only, networks only, or
GPS & networks). However, I would surprised if Location Mode changed
from Device sensors only (GPS only) to the other settings, or visa
versa. But, as I stated, I'm on an old Android version, and there will
never be a newer version for me. My old phone went unsupported back in
2019, and LG, the maker, left the smartphone market in 2021.

Again, this has nothing to do with the problem set of how to spoof the
Wi-Fi access point data.

In my Android 13, I can certainly set which apps have permissions but the
fact you're talking about permissions means you don't understand the
problem set - which is fine - almost nobody understands it except maybe
Andy Burns and me - but it's not about permissions.

It's about Google secretly turning things on, so to speak, whether or not
you "think" you have control over the permissions.

And as such, since the precise location accuracy is gonna be turned on
whether you like it or not, the question in this thread is how to spoof the
Wi-Fi access point data.

Post by VanguardLH
I haven't heard of apps that change the geolocation mode, just those
that want permission to use whatever is enabled. They might prod for
high accuracy, and may not function properly without it, like a car
locator app, but don't remember any that force a change in the mode.
I've not been hit with malware that might try to do that. Yet, I can
see how an OS upgrade could screw with settings. I have read where
users of Windows and Android sometime claim a setting got changed away
from what they configured, but if there was some evil plot to make that
change then everyone would complain.

The basic problem I have with writing a book for you to answer your basic
beginner questions is you just don't have anywhere near the experience to
understand the problem set so I will patiently try to explain the problem
to you by providing an analogy, which, even as it's factually inaccurate,
shows the point.

I'll try my best to teach you - but this is super beginner stuff.
Stuff everyone should know within a week of getting their first phone.

But I'll try - as hard as I can - to write a short book to help you
understand what the problem set is - at the risk of being blamed for not
being nice by simply trying nicely to answer your basic questions.

Here it goes...

Let's say you never wanted your GPS radio to be turned on.
Let's say that some apps secretly turn on your GPS radio.
Let's say that they do it in sneaky ways.
Legally. Legitimately. But sneaky.
They'll ask for example, if you want "better data" or something like that.
And you say yes.
Bingo! You just turned on your GPS radio.
But you didn't even mean to do that.
Each app finds a sneaky way to turn on your radio with your permission.
But that permission comes in a variety of sneaky ways.

If that's the case, then what you can do to counter that is simply spoof
your GPS data, right?

You spoof it to the middle of the Golden Gate Bridge. And you ahve it move
as if you're walking, by 1 meter per second along the roadway (which teh
spoofing apps will do for you).

Notice now that it doesn't matter if an app is sneaky in turning on your
GPS radio, since if they do turn on your GPS radio, they'll get inaccurate
GPS data. Which is fine because you'er not routing. You're just looking up
a bird in a database, or you're using Google Lens to look up a painting, or
you're using a wi-fi signal debugger, or you're looking for local cell
antennas or you're debugging your cellular connection, etc., NONE of which
need your GPS location - but they ALL turn it on without you knowing it.

Do you understand that analogy?
Good. Now apply it to the Wi-Fi access point database please.

If an app turns on the precise location without me knowing it did that
(which happens all the time - even to me - and I know all about it!),
I want it my precise wifi access point data to be spoofed.

The question in this thread takes an expert like Andy Burns to answer,
where the question is HOW TO SPOOF THE WI-FI ACCESS POINT DATA on Android.

[Andy Burns]

Post by VanguardLH
Unless Google is changing the high accuracy setting to enabled

That is indeed what google did on 16/10/2024 (the day Android 15 was
released on Pixels).

They enabled it, and left a notification on-screen that they had done
so, this wasn't only on my Pixel8a phone which got the upgrade, but also
my Huawei tablet (which hasn't been upgraded in years, thanks to the US
trade blacklist).

[Andrews]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by VanguardLH
Unless Google is changing the high accuracy setting to enabled

That is indeed what google did on 16/10/2024 (the day Android 15 was
released on Pixels).
They enabled it, and left a notification on-screen that they had done
so, this wasn't only on my Pixel8a phone which got the upgrade, but also
my Huawei tablet (which hasn't been upgraded in years, thanks to the US
trade blacklist).

Hi Andy,

I need to ask you point blank questions, mainly to understand the Android
15 issue better & then to come up with a usable spoofing solution for all.

1. I get it that Android 15 automagically toggles to on the switch at
"Settings > Locations > Location services > Google Location Accuracy

Post by Andy Burns
Improve Location Accuracy = On"; but does Android 15 also toggle

the concomitant "Wi-Fi scanning = On"?

Once either or both of those are turned on in Android 15, can you
turn them off and will they STAY OFF after you turn them off if you
do nothing else but reboot the phone a few times (i.e., I know
apps compiled with GSF can turn those buttons back on in pernicious
ways - which is the issue I was trying to explain to VanguardLH).

2. Do you have any idea how to spoof the Wi-Fi location data?


Note: I have no idea "what" these spoofing apps do to Wi-Fi location data.
<https://i.postimg.cc/7L8BN7Nq/mocklocation04.jpg>

PS: I wish the famous Jeff Lieberman (of a.i.w fame) knew about
Android what he knows about routers and access points! :)

[Andy Burns]

Post by Andrews
1. I get it that Android 15 automagically toggles to on the switch at
  "Settings > Locations > Location services > Google Location Accuracy
   > Improve Location Accuracy = On"; but does Android 15 also toggle
   the concomitant "Wi-Fi scanning = On"?

Mine is certainly on, but I don't think google changed that.

[Andy Burns]

   Once either or both of those are turned on in Android 15, can you
turn them off and will they STAY OFF after you turn them off if you
   do nothing else but reboot the phone a few times (i.e., I know
   apps compiled with GSF can turn those buttons back on in pernicious
   ways -

I've turned the off for a bit, willcheck later if they've been changed,
or whether a reboot changes them ...

2. Do you have any idea how to spoof the Wi-Fi location data?
Note: I have no idea "what" these spoofing apps do to Wi-Fi location data.

Do they require settings under "Developer Options"?

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Andrews
PS: I wish the famous Jeff Lieberman (of a.i.w fame) knew about
Android what he knows about routers and access points! :)

I've been retired from active involvement in such things since I
closed my former palatial office in late 2020. I'm still doing
repairs and helping the locals with their PC problems. I haven't been
able to put much time and effort into staying up to date because most
of my experience and research went through my now closed office. I
still read a few Usenet newsgroups, which is how I blundered across
this thread. Sorry, but I know nothing about spoofing a wi-fi
generated location on an Android phone. I doubt that location
information is sent back to some spy agency via wi-fi where it might
be intercepted at a router or access point. If they are using wi-fi,
one should be able to see NMEA 0183 data using Wireshark, which I only
see with GPS trackers.

If you really want to track your location, without butchering your
phone or having an evil spy agency looking over your shoulder, maybe
disabling your GPS (with some aluminum foil shielding), plugging in an
external USB hockey puck GPS receiver, and running your own server
might be an option:
<https://www.traccar.org>
You will not be able to benefit from cell tower location accuracy
enhancements, but with improved WAAS and additional satellite
constellations, you should be ok. The hard part will be to find an
Android mapping app that accepts external (USB) NMEA 0183 data.

Good luck with whatever you're trying to accomplish.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I know nothing about spoofing a wi-fi
generated location on an Android phone.

If GPS is off, and the phone is having to do coarse location via wifi,
it checks what visible SSIDs and signal strengths it can see, does an
API call on a google database which returns a location ... that's how it
works normally ... to fake a location you'd have to poison their
database adding fake SSIDs and removing real ones ... basically a
non-starter that way.

However there is reference to mock location support in the "hidden"
developer options, basically an API to feed fake co-ordinates from an
app to the phone

<https://developer.android.com/reference/android/location/LocationManager#setTestProviderLocation(java.lang.String,%20android.location.Location)>

[Andrews]

Post by Andy Burns
However there is reference to mock location support in the "hidden"
developer options, basically an API to feed fake co-ordinates from an
app to the phone
<https://developer.android.com/reference/android/location/LocationManager#setTestProviderLocation(java.lang.String,%20android.location.Location)>

To add to what Andy Burns in the UK said to Jeff Liebermann in Santa Cruz,
all you do to fake (aka mock) GPS location on Android are these easy steps.

a. Download & install any free adfree fake/mock/spoof GPS app.
b. Enable Android Developer options and turn mock location on
c. In Developer options, you choose only ONE mock location app
d. Then set your GPS location in your chosen mock location app

It's that easy to spoof your GPS location to any app.
Including Google Maps.

However... the question here is how to spoof the Wi-Fi location.
Note that in my prior screenshots, some apps say they will
"Spoof the Wi-Fi Network Provider" (whatever that means), and/or
"Spoof Wi_Fi Provider" (again, I don't know what that means).
<https://i.postimg.cc/7L8BN7Nq/mocklocation04.jpg>


Note these are the GPS spoofing apps that I had tested long ago.

Fake GPS location by Lexa
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lexa.fakegps>

Fake GPS Location - LocaEdit
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mobile.fakelocation>

Mocation Fake Location by Rasfar
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rasfar.mock.location>

DS Fake GPS Location by Disciple Skies
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.discipleskies.mock_location_spoofer>

Mock Location and More by Vyrazu Labs
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.vyrazu.mocklocationfakegps>

Cartage - Fake GPS Location by Mock Applications
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mock.cartage>

Fake GPS: Location spoofer
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=project.listick.fakegps>

AnyGo GPS Spoofer: Fake GPS
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.luckydog.anygoapp>

Mock Loc
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mocker.mockloc>

Fake GPS Location Spoofer by Fast Video Downloads
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fake.gps.location.changer.spoof.location>

Movable Mock GPS by Tomer Brosh
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bomerapps.movablemockgps>

GPS Locker Fake your location by Foxbyte Code
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.foxbytecode.gpslocker>

Fake GPS Phone Location by Selfie Photo Editor
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=find.my.friends.family.gps.location.tracker>

GPS Spoofer MH Tool - Loc Spoof by liqiyu
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.irocket.locspoof>

GPS Location Change - Joystick by LovMoMo
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.momo.fakegps.locationchanger>

[Andy Burns]

Post by Andrews
However... the question here is how to spoof the Wi-Fi location.
Note that in my prior screenshots, some apps say they will "Spoof the
Wi-Fi Network Provider" (whatever that means)

Do you even know if they do what they claim to?

[Andrews]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andrews
However... the question here is how to spoof the Wi-Fi location.
Note that in my prior screenshots, some apps say they will "Spoof the
Wi-Fi Network Provider" (whatever that means)

Do you even know if they do what they claim to?

Hi Andy,

Are you asking about course GPS location or the precise Wi-Fi location?

I'm confused why you ask that since I already answered both a few times.
a. Certainly the course GPS location is spoofed - there is no doubt of it.
b. But I have no idea (yet) how to spoof the precise Wi-Fi location output.

I said a few times that mock-location apps certainly successfully spoof the
course GPS location but I don't know what "Spoof the Wi-Fi Provider" does.
<https://i.postimg.cc/7L8BN7Nq/mocklocation04.jpg>

Spoofing "precise Wi-Fi" is why I asked the question in the Subject line.
*How to Spoof the precise Wi-Fi Location?*

I'm seeking ideas from anyone how we can spoof the precise Wi-Fi location
(which is wanted for apps that don't need it - which is almost all apps).

Any ideas?

[Andy Burns]

Post by Andrews
I said a few times that mock-location apps certainly successfully spoof the
course GPS location but I don't know what "Spoof the Wi-Fi Provider" does.
<https://i.postimg.cc/7L8BN7Nq/mocklocation04.jpg>
Spoofing "precise Wi-Fi" is why I asked the question in the Subject line.
   *How to Spoof the precise Wi-Fi Location?*

I would class wifi location as less precise than GPS, I just wondered if
you had actually tried the apps which claim to spoof wifi?

Don't all the various location sources work via the fused location
provider anyway?

[Andrews]

Post by Andy Burns
I would class wifi location as less precise than GPS, I just wondered if
you had actually tried the apps which claim to spoof wifi?

We can endlessly debate which is more precise, particularly indoors versus
outdoors, so I don't want to get bogged down on that - namely because I
don't want *any* location lookups when I'm using an app that doesn't need
it such as the insect-lookup app that I used to find out what this bug is
<Loading Image...>

I'm not talking about routing apps by the way, as they do need at least the
most course of lookups in order to route you. I'm talking about apps that
do not need your location at all - or which don't need precise location -
and yet - because they're using Google API's - they *require* it to work.

Post by Andy Burns
Don't all the various location sources work via the fused location
provider anyway?

Ever since Jeff Layman brought up fused location services a few years ago,
I've never understood what they are - so I can't answer that question.

However, most of my knowledge (and understanding) is empirical, where I
*do* understand what my eyes are telling me when I run a variety of tests.

The main test I run is the following:
1. I install & set up the Lexa mock-location app in Developer options.
2. In Lexa, I set my location to the middle of the Golden Gate Bridge.
3. In Android "Location Settings" I turn "Location = On"
4. At this point, all other "Location Services" are not enabled
a. Google Location Accuracy = off
b. Google Location Sharing = off
c. Google Location History = does not exist
d. Wi-Fi scanning = off
e. Bluetooth scanning = off
f. Earthquake alerts = off
g. Emergency Location Service = off
In "App Permissions" no apps have "Location" allowed.
(yes, even Google Maps has "Don't Allow" for location access.
Also in "App Permissions" no apps have "Nearby devices permission".

This is my normal setup (since Lexa runs at boot), which is that no apps
have access to location, and even if they did, it's a spoofed location.

But now I want to *test* if my location is being spoofed, right?
I need an app that wants GPS but which doesn't force precise location.

Finding that app isn't as easy as you might think it is, simply because
most apps use GSF spyware which forces precise location even though the app
doesn't need it. But I just tried OSMAnd~ (version 4.5.1.0) which let me
keep "approximate location" and it thinks I'm on the Golden Gate Bridge.

But let's try a more pernicious app, such as Google Maps which won't work
unless I enable "Precise Location". If I fight with Google Maps, repeatedly
telling it to keep the "Approximate Location", eventually (after three or
so repeats), Google Mpas gives up trying and then it starts working, but it
thinks I'm on the middle of the Golden Gate Bridge.

At this point, I've "fooled" Google Maps, right? Well, not really.

Sure, Google Maps thinks I'm on the Golden Gate Bridge because Google Maps
fought with me and lost the battle for me to enable Precise Location.

But now let's say I want to route with Google Maps by choosing a desired
destination. You can't "Choose start location" of "Your location" because
Google Maps will complain "Can't apply some route options. Try again".

What I can do is "Choose Start Location" by selecting "Choose on map" where
Google Maps zooms to the destination first, but I can hit the "Where am I"
button to get Google Maps to zoom back to the San Francisco Bay.

Now Google Maps will create directions from the "pin location" to the
destination (where the pin location is my spoofed location) but it won't
update it because "Precise Location Denied" keeps coming up in Maps.

So I give in and give Google Maps "Use precise location = on", and a funny
thing starts happening.

Google Maps thinks I'm in San Francisco, and then a few minutes later,
Google Maps realizes (presumably from my neighbors' Wi-Fi access points
perhaps - or maybe from cellular tower geolocation data) that I'm not.

So Google Maps gets confused and jumps back and forth between the two
locations every few seconds.

What does this tell me? I think it implies that Google Maps is using GPS to
think I'm in San Francisco, but it's using my dumb neighbors' Wi-Fi access
points to know I'm not. So it gets confused.

From that, I'm gonna guess that I'm spoofing the GPS, but not the WI-Fi
location (which is what I think it means to get "precise location" although
"precise location" could use cellular tower information for all I know.

What does it mean to allow Precise Location anyway?

Anyway, to speed things up, I set Lexa to move 10 meters every 10 ms, and
Google Maps keeps trying to re-route me as Lexa moves me from point to
point but not following the path that Google had set up for me to follow.

In order to prevent Google Maps from figuring out I'm in two very different
locations at the same time, all I really want to do is kill the Wi-Fi
access point data - by spoofing it to nonsensical information so Google
Maps can't use it so Google Maps has to rely on the GPS information alone.

The main question, I just realized, is not how to "spoof" the Wi-Fi access
point data (of nearby Access Points) but how to zero them out so that any
app that "wants" Wi-Fi access point data gets nonsensical data that it
can't make any sense of - so - it has to rely on the GPS data alone.

But how?

How do you make sure Wi-Fi access location data is zeroed out?

[Andrews]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I've been retired from active involvement in such things since I
closed my former palatial office in late 2020.

Good for you that you finally retired from all that work, especially now
that Mike at Ridge, Loren at Hilltop, Etheric, Surfnet, etc., are competing
with the likes of Frontier (although Andrea Lovelady at Surfnet says they
received a series of 10 million dollar grants to put fiber in the Santa
Cruz mountains). To bad Brett, in Arizona, has passed away. RIP Brett.

He was acerbic, to say the least, but he got the job done when needed.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Sorry, but I know nothing about spoofing a wi-fi
generated location on an Android phone.

Don't worry. I don't know how to do it either, but I'm confident it is
simply done with software passing fake data via the Google APIs.

This set of screenshots of mine show they do "something" like that.
<Loading Image...> Android mock location
<Loading Image...> Best mock location apps
<Loading Image...> Mock location setting
<https://i.postimg.cc/7L8BN7Nq/mocklocation04.jpg> Spoof wifi/gps provider
<Loading Image...> Randomize road speed
<Loading Image...> Spoof Wi-Fi provider

I just have to figure out HOW to tell what the heck they're spoofing.
Maybe WireShark, Netstumbler, WiGle, etc., might tell me. Dunno.

You're the Wi-Fi expert who taught me everything I know, way back in the
day when I was trying to spoof my MAC address (now the AP MAC addresses are
spoofed by default on iOS and Android).

You told me, long ago, that you can't spoof the ROUTER's WAN-facing MAC
address though - which - unfortunately - is the one we'd want to spoof!

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I doubt that location
information is sent back to some spy agency via wi-fi where it might
be intercepted at a router or access point. If they are using wi-fi,
one should be able to see NMEA 0183 data using Wireshark, which I only
see with GPS trackers.

The problem is that 9,998 out of 10,000 people have their phones set up to
hand Google (and others like Mozilla) the unique BSSID & unique GPS
location of your home router's access points.

My phone doesn't do that, of course, but I'm the 1 out of 9,998 people who
has his phone set up responsibly. The rest are irresponsible rude people.

Given 9,999 out of 9,998 people are rude & irresponsible, what I have to do
to keep my unique router access point SSID out of Google's (and others')
databases is more than just append "_nomap" to opt out of the database.

If you just append "_nomap" to the outward-facing access-point SSID, all
that accomplishes is Google "says" they will scrub you out of their db.

But all the phones that drive by my house will still UPLOAD that unique
BSSID & GPS information (and signal strength, and a few other things) to
the Google (and other) databases - so you have to trust that Google will
scrub it.

While Google probably does scrub the unique BSSID & GPS location of your
home router access points that have "_nomap" appended, you can't trust that
all the similar databases will do so, e.g., Apple got in trouble recently
for handing out four hundred at a time of these datapoints to hackers.
<https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/23/apple_wifi_positioning_system/>

So what do you do on Android to keep the 9,999 rude people out of 10,000
people from UPLOADING your unique BSSID & GPS location to those databases?

You "hide" the broadcast! It' that simple (almost). Yes, we're all well
aware that hiding accomplishes nothing in terms of security but it actually
accomplishes "something" in terms of privacy.

Remember those 9,998 rude people?

All of those 9,998 phones won't even "see" a hidden broadcast SSID!
So they no longer UPLOAD your unique BSSID & GPS location to the databases.

But what about the other person in the 2 out of 10,000 people?
That person is using something like WiGle or WireShark, and that person
will, of course, see the hidden SSID but that person isn't the major
concern.

The major concern are the 9,998 rude people who upload your unique BSSID
and GPS location to the Google (and other) databases which, if you look at
the URL I provided above, are abused like you can't believe by hackers.

Now, there "is" a problem with hiding the SSID broadcast of your home
router, which is that if you have auto-reconnect set on your phone, then
your phone will be "L@@KING" for that specific SSID - which - for the
tinfoil hat folks (I've been accused of being one of them) is a no no .

So you have to turn OFF the auto-reconnect to the home SSID (you could
geofence automate it, but that's a whole 'nuther can of privacy worms).

So now you're as private as you're gonna get, in terms of Wi-Fi...
1. You set your home router to NOT broadcast your router's AP SSID
2. You set the phone to NOT automatically reconnect to that AP SSID
3. You add a homescreen shortcut to make the manual connection a single tap

The result is:
a. Your home is the only home in town that is NOT in the Google database
(Apple too, Mozilla too, who knows how many others there are)
b. Your phone does not shout out your AP BSSID when you're away from home

This is good.

Except....

All your stupid neighbors are in the 9,998 out of 10,000 rude people only
this time it's 9,998 out of 10,000 routers are throwing your privacy under
the bus instead of the 9,998 out of 10,000 phones we spoke about above.

You can't get all your neighbors to put "_nomap" on their SSID.
They're too stupid. Yes. I've tried. They don't get it.

It's where I've learned that most people are incredibly stupid.
Somethuign this simple is beyond their comprehension.

Google takes advantage of that.
So does Mozilla.
And Apple.

(Even Microsoft does with its "_optout_" shenanigans.)

Post by Jeff Liebermann
If you really want to track your location, without butchering your
phone or having an evil spy agency looking over your shoulder, maybe
disabling your GPS (with some aluminum foil shielding), plugging in an
external USB hockey puck GPS receiver, and running your own server
<https://www.traccar.org>
You will not be able to benefit from cell tower location accuracy
enhancements, but with improved WAAS and additional satellite
constellations, you should be ok. The hard part will be to find an
Android mapping app that accepts external (USB) NMEA 0183 data.

I do NOT want to "track my location". I can already do that.
We've *always* been able to do that.

What I don't want is Google/Mozilla/Apple/etc. tracking my location.
The way to do that is what I'm seeking.

I can already do it for GPS.
But I don't know how to do it for Wi-Fi.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Good luck with whatever you're trying to accomplish.

All I'm trying to do is spoof the Wi-Fi location the same way that I'm
already spoofing the GPS location when I'm using an app that doesn't need
either but which has Google GSF incorporated into it so it asks anyway.

A cellular debugger doesn't need precise Wi-Fi or GPS location information.
A weather app doesn't need precise Wi-Fi or GPS location information.
A browser app doesn't need precise Wi-Fi or GPS location information.
An insect lookup app doesn't need precise Wi-Fi or GPS loc information.
A security camera setup app doesn't need precise Wi-Fi or GPS loc data.
A wifi signal strength app doesn't need precise Wi-Fi or GPS location.

None of these apps need precise Wi-Fi or GPS location information; but
Google forces them all who use GSF to get it for Google.

That's the problem I'm trying to solve.

When an app does NOT need precise Wi-Fi or GPS location information, why
should I give it to them. I don't need it. The app doesn't need it.

It's Google who wants it.
I've already solved the problem for "my" Wi-Fi access point.

But I have the problem of the 9,998 rude people's Wi-Fi access points.
Those are my neighbors who are the dumbshits throwing me under the bus.

I need to spoof THEIR wi-fi access point BSSID & GPS locations on my phone.

So that's the issue I'm trying to solve on the Android phone.
a. How to spoof GPS location information (done).
b. How to spoof Wi-Fi location information (that's the question!)

[Andy Burns]

Post by Andrews
I just have to figure out HOW to tell what the heck they're spoofing.

I doubt anything goes over the wire to be wiresharked, it's a local API
on the phone.

There's sample code on github/stack overflow etc, or just use an
existing mock app?

[Andrews]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andrews
I just have to figure out HOW to tell what the heck they're spoofing.

I doubt anything goes over the wire to be wiresharked, it's a local API
on the phone.
There's sample code on github/stack overflow etc, or just use an
existing mock app?

I realize I told Jeff Liebermann a slight mistruth when I said in the post
that Andy is responding to...

"I just have to figure out HOW to tell what the heck they're spoofing.
Maybe WireShark, Netstumbler, WiGle, etc., might tell me. Dunno.

You're the Wi-Fi expert who taught me everything I know, way back in the
day when I was trying to spoof my MAC address (now the AP MAC addresses
are spoofed by default on iOS and Android).

You told me, long ago, that you can't spoof the ROUTER's WAN-facing MAC
address though - which - unfortunately - is the one we'd want to spoof!"

Since this thread wasn't about randomizing a MAC address, I didn't notice
that what I said above is slightly wrong in "what" MAC address is
randomized.

To be clear on the current state of Android MAC address randomization:

1. The home router's outward-facing (WAN) MAC address is NOT randomized
(unless the router software allows that - which I don't know about).

2. What's randomized by default now is the mobile device MAC address
that connects to the router's LAN-facing access point. This default
mobile device (iOS & Android) randomization is per access point.

3. For Android only in Developer options" is another privacy setting
to randomize #2 per connection (so it changes every time you connect).

When Jeff Liebermann and I last spoke about MAC randomization (oh, maybe
ten or fifteen years ago or so), this default randomization didn't exist.

Now both iOS & Android do MAC randomization (per AP) by default.

[VanguardLH]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by VanguardLH
Unless Google is changing the high accuracy setting to enabled

That is indeed what google did on 16/10/2024 (the day Android 15 was
released on Pixels).
They enabled it, and left a notification on-screen that they had done
so, this wasn't only on my Pixel8a phone which got the upgrade, but also
my Huawei tablet (which hasn't been upgraded in years, thanks to the US
trade blacklist).

That definitely sucks, and is rude. Close to malicious, or very
insensitive. I've never been hit with malware, but this action seems
like we need something to watch for changes by Google via Play Store
services. Seems we need an Anti-Google PUA (Probably Unwanted Action)
app that monitors the settings to either enforce them back to a recorded
state saved in the monitor app, or to force a popup to prompt the user
on every setting change, and not allow or revert the setting if the user
responds No. That could be a ton of prompts for app, OS, and service
updates making the user spend more time on prompts than in using their
phone. Too much security interferes with usability.

I suspect such an app wouldn't work unless running on a rooted phone
which pretty much knocks out 99.9% of Android users. I doubt Apple is
any better. There are a LOT of Android settings, in addition to those
for the apps, so even with such an intervention prompt the user might
not understand what a pending change is attempting to do.

There are services, and even an Android app, and problem Windows/Linux
programs to monitor web site to detect changes. Looks like we need a
change detection app for Android itself.

Would a de-Googled smartphone be any better regarding secured settings
despite updates? That means no Play Store, and no Play Services. Not
many users will root their phones. Even less with play with custom
ROMs that can brick their phones. You read horror stories about the
attempts, like:

https://www.tomsguide.com/features/i-tried-de-googled-android-again-heres-how-that-went

I haven't much dug into what all you get at https://de-googled.com/,
because I'm not as paranoid about privacy as some others. I sometimes
use cash, but not to prevent tracking where I've been, what I buy, and
from whom when using credit/debit cards. I'm not trying to disappear
off the grid. Somehow detecting I was at Starbucks using my phone seems
no more a privacy invasion than everyone outside that that saw me enter
there, everyone inside the store that saw me there, and any security
cameras in the parking lot, and inside the store recording my presence
either near or in the store.

[Andrews]

Post by Andrews
How do you spoof Wi-Fi location on Android?

I realized while answering Andy's questions that what is needed is not to
"spoof" any particular Wi-Fi access point location, but to zero it out.

That is, any app that requires Wi-Fi access point information would get
nothing so the app would have to fall back on GPS information instead.

Which can easily be spoofed.

Note: You don't use this stuff when you're routing; you use it for apps
like a weather app that don't really need your exact location but they
require it for the app to work (because they're mining your data).

So the question morphs to:
How to we make sure ZERO Wi-Fi access point data is utilized
when precise location is turned on with Google Location Accuracy?

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Andrews

Post by Andrews
How do you spoof Wi-Fi location on Android?

I realized while answering Andy's questions that what is needed is not to
"spoof" any particular Wi-Fi access point location, but to zero it out.
That is, any app that requires Wi-Fi access point information would get
nothing so the app would have to fall back on GPS information instead.
Which can easily be spoofed.
Note: You don't use this stuff when you're routing; you use it for apps
like a weather app that don't really need your exact location but they
require it for the app to work (because they're mining your data).
How to we make sure ZERO Wi-Fi access point data is utilized
when precise location is turned on with Google Location Accuracy?

I'm wondering if carrying a Wi-Fi access point around with you might
offer some benefits. Most (not all) Wi-Fi protocols allow only allow
your phone to join only one wi-fi network at a time. The older
protocols have this useful limitation. Later protocols, such as those
which support seamless roaming, can connect to more than one access
point.
<https://www.tp-link.com/us/support/faq/2097/>
Pre-authenticating, which requires joining more than one wi-fi network
at a time, might also be a problem. For example, the phone could
properly connect your pocket wi-fi access point, and then go wandering
off and roam to some other access point, which is connected to the
internet, in the hope of finding an access point with an internet
connection.

If your phone is connected to a wi-fi access point that is under your
control and is NOT connected to the internet, all the access point can
do is provide your position when it last connected to the internet. In
other words, instead of zero location data, give Google old or
erroneous location data.

Reminder. I'm retired and am not keeping up to date on such things. I
also don't have the time and resources to investigate this further. I
have no plans to do any testing. Also, thank you for the long lists
of URL's on the topic. I'm sure these would make interesting reading,
but right now, I'm dealing with other projects and have other
priorities.

[Arno Welzel]

[...]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Andrews
How to we make sure ZERO Wi-Fi access point data is utilized
when precise location is turned on with Google Location Accuracy?

I'm wondering if carrying a Wi-Fi access point around with you might
offer some benefits. Most (not all) Wi-Fi protocols allow only allow

[...]

I don't think so. Because this access point can be seen by *other*
devices which may report its current position. This is how Google learns
the positions of Wi-Fi access points anyway.

[Andrews]

Post by Arno Welzel
I don't think so. Because this access point can be seen by *other*
devices which may report its current position. This is how Google learns
the positions of Wi-Fi access points anyway.

With Jeff's suggestion, we're finally making progress on the solution.

What Arno said is true that any access point (that advertises itself on
airwaves as not hidden) will be seen (& uploaded) to the AP databases.

This upload is not done by you - but by all the rude people around you.
Which is pretty much everybody who owns an Android phone (9,999 of 10K).

For the one out of 10,000 people who doesn't want to be in the AP db
Google was forced to create an "opt out" mechanism to that upload.
<https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632>

Apple & Mozilla "say" they will respect Google's opt-out mechanism too.
Microsoft uses a different opt out, though, namely xxx_optout_nomap
<https://account.microsoft.com/privacy/location-services-opt-out>

Notice it "can take up to five business days" for these outfits to scrub
you from their access point databases, which means, effectively, as long as
a rude Android owner is near you within those five days, you're screwed.

That's why you also need to set your SSID broadcast to "hidden" since all
respectable companies will honor hidden broadcasts as "private" in intent.

Overall, that means your SSID needs only to have these three things:
a. You start with the Google/Mozilla/Apple opt out (SSID_nomap)
b. Then you add the Microsoft opt out (SSID_optout_nomap)
c. Then you turn off the public broadcast (aka, hidden network).
(See the sig for clarification on hiding the access point broadcast.)

I love that Jeff Liebermann has come up with a potential solution.
I will dig into the references to see if what he suggests might work.

Any other ideas for Wi-Fi access point privacy are invited as Jeff, Andy,
Arno and I seem to understand the goal of zeroing out Wi-Fi AP uploads
while we're forced to use precise location for apps that don't need it.

Note: We don't zero it out during routing - but an insect lookup app which
requires precise location doesn't really need it. They're mining you.

[Arno Welzel]

Post by Andrews

Post by Arno Welzel
I don't think so. Because this access point can be seen by *other*
devices which may report its current position. This is how Google learns
the positions of Wi-Fi access points anyway.

With Jeff's suggestion, we're finally making progress on the solution.
What Arno said is true that any access point (that advertises itself on
airwaves as not hidden) will be seen (& uploaded) to the AP databases.
This upload is not done by you - but by all the rude people around you.
Which is pretty much everybody who owns an Android phone (9,999 of 10K).

Not *people* - *devices*! People just use their devices and may not even
be aware of this!

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Arno Welzel
[...]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Andrews
How to we make sure ZERO Wi-Fi access point data is utilized
when precise location is turned on with Google Location Accuracy?

I'm wondering if carrying a Wi-Fi access point around with you might
offer some benefits. Most (not all) Wi-Fi protocols allow only allow

[...]
I don't think so. Because this access point can be seen by *other*
devices which may report its current position. This is how Google learns
the positions of Wi-Fi access points anyway.

To get info about what an AP (access point) can hear, dumping the ARP
(address resolution protocol) table or collecting broadcasts seems
like likely methods. There are various ways to limit the scope of the
ARP table. The easiest way is to reduce the number of entries in the
table one entry and assign a static ARP entry. Only one pre-specified
device can connect. Another AP might be able to hear broadcasts from
the pocket AP, but I suspect that it will not add ARP table entries
for devices which cannot connect. This needs to be tested (not by
me).

Jitsi meeting beckons. Later...

[Arno Welzel]

Post by Andrews
How do you spoof Wi-Fi location on Android?

On a real device? You can't do this.

With an Android emulator you can spoof any location you want for the
apps. But this is only possible because the emulator is controlled by
the host PC. On a real device you would need to fake the database which
is used to derive the location based on the Wi-Fi SSID(s) the device can
see.

Post by Andrews
I probably know this stuff better'n anyone here, but maybe (hopefully)
someone who reads this question knows it better than I do as I do NOT know
how to spoof Wi-Fi location when Google Location Accuracy is turned on.
Whenever I turn on Google Location Accuracy (e.g., when an app requires it
to run), I immediately first spoof my GPS location (if I'm not routing).

No, it is not "GPS location" it is really just the location of the Wi-Fi
access point which Google recorder earlier when other devices had GPS
*and* Wi-Fi active and the users allowed Google to use that data in the
device settings (maybe this is even the default, I am not sure).

[...]

Post by Andrews
Given that situation that it's trivial to spoof GPS when Precise Location
Accuracy is turned on, does anyone know how to spoof Wi-Fi location data?

You can't.